Do you WIki?
I was thinking Wikipedia is kind of a weird format to use being as it can be changed by anyone. Makes me wonder if we can count on its accuracy on the information we take away from it
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I was thinking Wikipedia is kind of a weird format to use being as it can be changed by anyone. Makes me wonder if we can count on its accuracy on the information we take away from it
To begin, I can’t say that I fully comprehend this piece on The Analytical Language of John Wilkins by Jorge Luis Borges. Reading the article I could only understand bits and pieces of paragraphs, nothing as a whole, no matter how many times I read it.
After reading through the Wilkins article for the third time I'm still having a very difficult time trying to understand the basis of what this guy is saying. Ok, I understand (somewhat) the idea behind the categories of classes, the monosyllables and the consonants, but it seems he does not stick to one topic when he is discussing Wilkins' "analytical language". For example, Borges is discussing Wilkins' four-level table, then he mentions the eighth and the sixteenth categories, what happened to the idea of the four-level table? Did they leave it back at the bus shelter or what? Then Borges goes on to make the statement "Beauty belongs to the sixteenth category; it is a living brood fish, an oblong one". What in Gods name does that mean? "A living brood fish, an oblong one"? What is meant by that? It appears to be just some nonsense rant, any ideas anyone? Also those recepies at the end of the article? yeah, no clue whatsoever.
Wow!!! Both of the readings were quite interesting. I really enjoyed them both.
I think that rhetoric and logic can be connected in many ways. They are connected in the sense that they both represent techniques and ways for persuading speech - Rhetoric uses public speech to bring the listener in and make them believe in what is being said. Logic is quite similiar, as it also uses many techniques to validate, and make more sound "true" statements. Similarily philosophers believed that rhetoric was essetial to discovering truth and clarifying arguements. Logic can be viewed in this way as well - it is used to discover fallacies, clarify true statements and therefore be sound. However, I think the difference between the two is that Logic is more of a defensive tool to use to figure out persuasive agruments and help get to the truth. Whereas rhetoric is more the method and practice of "tricking" and being persuasive.
After reading this weeks reading I found it a much easier read than previous ones we've done. The word usage was just a little more practical, it was alot easier to understand. Also, the concept of Logic was easier to understand as opposed to something like linguistic structure. It was also more helpful in that the concepts of Logic and rhetoric worked together in a clearer way then say Relativism and saussures' concpets. The two concpets (rhetoric,logic) work together in that logic helps us from being persuaded by rhetoric in say an advertisement or in a discussion with friends. If we did not have our own logic I think we would be in a difficult spot when it came to making difficult decesions, being persuaded towards things we don't necessarily agree with.
wow, that was a long read. but it was definetly jam-packed with a lot of information. i want to start off by commenting on the opening quote; "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln" I love this quote. i've heard it before and i think its awesome.
My understanding of rhetorics and logic, after reading the articles is that they are similar in that they both deal with persuasive speach but I think that they are completely opposite. I hope that I am on the right track but what I got from the articles is that rhetorics is a way of being persuasive in speach eg. politics, advertising, etc... and logic is a way of recognising persuasive speach. I think that this is the relationship between the two. Rhetorics first uses a logical phrase and the changes the words, using the same phrase to make it more persuasive for whatever purpose. Logic is a way of looking at a rhetorical phrase and picking it a part to figure out what it actually means, not what one may be initially tricked into thinking it means. I think that defining logic as "The Laws Of Thought" is a little too much. I think that it may be an area of thought but not every thought one has is logical and some thoughts don't have anything to do with logic.
I was on vacation last class therefore missed the tutorial. Can anyone please let me know the readings that are due for next class besides the link that Mr. Morse just emailed us and if there are any essays due. Much appreciated, Nichole.
Folks,
I had no idea that rhetoric was a subject that was studied and taught so much. Rhetoric as a discipline has such a long history. I really just thought it meant persuasive speech. Rhetoric isn't something I am aware of although it is persistently present in media. Advertising and marketing use rhetoric to persuade us to buy the latest video game, lipgloss or car. You can also see it political debates each politician trying to get you to see their platform through persuasion. Speech writers probably know what language and words to use that will appeal to the common audience. I don't know if I'm on the right track but this is what I took from the article.
My understanding after reading this article is that rhetoric is simply the technique of persuasion. I was most interested in the Sophists and their claim of being able to teach human "excellence" through public speech. In addition, I also found it interesting that Plato believed the Sophists simply flattered their audiences with claims they wanted to hear rather then what is actually true. After reading these few points, today's media immediatly came to mind. It seems that presently the media acts as the "rhetor" by using public displays for persuasion -- Telling audiences what they want to hear. This was just a thought, it might be way off as I like other classmates have found these artciles to be quite complex and difficult to follow.
I like Plato's opinion of Rhetoric/Sophistics if I am undertanding it correctly. I think what he believed was that Sophists were the types to "say what people wanted to hear, not what was true". I just can't believe that Socrates, his teacher, was sentanced to death for being accused of this. Even if the accusations were true, why was he at fault when anyone in his audience had the choice of forming their own views/opinions on whatever the topic of discussion was. Imagine what Plato or some of the others of that time would think of politicians today!
I read some posts by other classmates and found they had the same mind frame as me, that they found this article really dry and boring. I found it intersting in the beginning but as it went on it got more and more 'blah'. There is one part that caught my eye, under Ancient Greece it stated "for modern students today, it can be diffiucult to remember that the wide use and availability of written texts is a phenomenon that was just coming into vogue in Classical Greece. In Classical times, many of the great thinkers spoke thier words; in fact, many of them are known only through the texts that their students and followers wrote down." I couldn't imagine attempting to complete ANY assignments without countless written texts to get information from. It's cool to see how times have changed, I wonder how students coped not being able to have information to look off of?
After reading the article in the Kit on Rhetoric, I came to the conclusion that it just said the same thing over and over again for 7 pages. The only important point that was put across was the definition of Rhetoric, which could have been done in one paragraph instead of 7 pages! The idea that I came away from it with is that Rhetoric is using words in an effective manner, so as to persuade the listener.
As you all are aware we were to read the 4th article of the kit entitled "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins". After reading this article I found that alot of the terms created by Wilkins in his new language made really no sense at all. Although there appeared to be similarities between his new words such as "imafo" for pesthouse and "imari" for house, they were still very difficult to comprehend. But then again I guess thats the case with any new language you attempt to learn, all the words probably seem very foregin to the learner because the have never seen them before. However what struck me as the most peculiar were the recipies at the end of the article from the "Nonsense Gazette, for August, 1870". I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea whatsoever as to how these recipies are linked to the rest of the article. hahaha I'm sure the fact that I had trouble getting through the article in the first place contributes to my non-understanding but any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
YOU ARE RAEDING TIHS AND UDNERSTNADNIG WAHT IS WRTTIEN EEVNTHUOGH THE LTETERS ARE ALL MXIED UP. DO YOU KNOW WHY THIS IS PSSOBILE? I BEILVEE IT IS BSAED ON SUSASRUE’S THOERY ON CONCPETS. WE UNEDRSTNAD WAHT IS WRTTIEN HREE AS LNOG AS THE FRIST AND THE LSAT LTETERS ARE IN THE CRROECT PALCE OF A WROD. TIHS IS BECUASE OUR BARIN DEOS THE SAME THING WEHN WE HAER WRODS BIENIG SPOEKN AND AS WE INTREPERT MAENING .
I found The Object of Study article a little hard to get into. To be honest, I thought it was rather boring and because of this, I found it hard to concentrate when reading it. I understand that it is hard to study language because there are too many approaches that can be taken. I also understand the concept that one has know way of knowing, when talking to another person, whether or not what one is saying is being interpereted by the other person in the way that one wants it to be. I just thought that the article went on and on and eventually I lost interest. I did not have this problem with the relativism article. I thought it was more interesting and because of this I found it easier to read.
Basically my understanding of rhetoric's is that rhetoric’s is means of conveying the message in a nice way, and then dialectic thought is used for analyzing the message that was conveyed to decide if it is a true or a false rhetoric. In our day rhetorics regarded by many as something negative because it is a very effective way to lie if a person listening is not really analyzing what you are saying. Using rhetoric makes something "sound true" even though it doesnt necesseraly have to be true. But on the other hand rhetorics or the art of speech is used everyday by any good salesmen and buisness men. An excellent example of a man who is very good at rhetorical speaches is the movie "Thank you for smoking". This movie is about a man who is a speaker for the cigarette companies. He is one of the best, as cigarettes are a hard product to sell, advertise and most of all defend in public against all the health critics. My favourite quote from this movie and goes something like " it doesnt matter what you are trying to prove, as long as you construct your argument correctly you are going to be right." and this is displayed throughout the movie how he defends cigarettes by telling people how its in their librety to smoke, and it is their decission, cigarette companies are only there to provide a service. Anyways I dont want to give away too much detail, because it is a very interesting movie to watch, and it relates alot to rhetoric's.
I don't know if I am understanding the article correctly but it continually refers to language and sign as being arbitrary. Which I think would mean that language is chosen at random? I don't think that it means that we just wake up one day and chose to call a tree a car, but rather that as language evolves it changes, subtly. There are many examples of words that are derived from Latin or Greek to mean one thing but in English mean something entirely different. An example in the text is the Latin word "necare" meaning "to Kill" but the French version is "noyer" which means "to drown". (pg. 10) Changes in language can occur in translation, but I guess also through time and pop culture our language and they way we use words can change from one generation to the next. My grandfather years ago complaint to me that the paperboy said his house looked "sick". My grandfather was confused but took it as something negative, some kind of weird insult. I told him it was a compliment. How can one word mean two totally different things?
Ok one more......sorry.
Just a quick comment on the reading.
I'm not sure if we are supposed to comment on the story(s) that we were told to read (page 65-78) but I found that the most interesting out of all the readings we were told to read for the next class so I thought I'd comment on it.
This message is in regards to Matthew’s thoughts on the quote “the faculty of articulating words is put to use only by means of the linguistic instrument created and provided by society”.
In reference to General Principles, CP page 6.
Dear Folks,